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In the latest episode of the Believe Again podcast, I got to sit down with Jason Laird, who is planting a church for the second time.

What was so interesting about our discussion was that when I asked him about what he was doing differently, he focused more on who he was becoming in the process instead of what he was doing. Here are some of his insights.

"There are some things that I've learned about myself, about God, about people, about how to measure success. Like what does actual success in the kingdom look like? And so those things are informing not just what we're going to do, but who we are and being at peace and at rest with that. And so that's the first thing I'd tell you is that we had to wrestle with that at the beginning."

Too many times, we want to learn or do something new or better without becoming new or different. Jason addresses this directly.

"What needs to change in me now as a pastor, church planter, or leader? Are there unhealthy expectations I have of people of God or myself? If so, wrestling with all those things, doing that deep interior work puts a grit and fortitude inside of you and some health to where when you go through the planting season... [you do not crack]."

One of my favorite parts of our talk was when Jason offered his definition of success.

"We all have our different things that we deal with. But what happened for me is that it profoundly shaped some stuff in my identity that made me define success with numbers, crowds, and everything else.

And so, for me, coming from two mega-churches and then planting this little church in San Francisco, it ate at my soul for a while because my metric for success was that and not obedience. What I had to learn in that whole process is that success is not doing something that looks big or grand or doing something that looks whatever; success is simply hearing, believing, and obeying."

Jason went through a process of redefining success that can benefit many leaders in ministry.

We should ask God, "What [is it that] you've called me to do. Then, deciding I'm going to be obedient to that. And regardless of what the outcome looks like."

1. Outlook is on me. That is, I'm going to have an outlook of faith and believe that God's going to do great things.

2. Output is on me. I'm going to work as hard as I can. In a healthy way, healthy also.

3. Obedience is on me. I'm just to do the things that God's called me to do and be who God's called me to be.

4. And then the outcome, that's on God.

So the first one is on me, but the last one's on God. So, whatever the outcome may be. Your soul will languish even when the crowds grow if your definition of success is wrong. And so I've tried to get down into my heart and try to live by that."

You can watch our entire conversation on Youtube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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